I keep telling certain men that this feeling women have is not misandry. Not bigotry. It is a lived experience, over and over. It’s intelligent not to continue to place a hand on a hot iron. Touch it twice and then you know to stay the hell away from a hot iron. The conclusion that men are scary is a completely intelligent conclusion to come to.
Thank you for explaining this in a way I will send to just about every dude I know.
Hey, listen. It's all mixed together, though. I keep running across misandrist women around here, without this particular topic, and I'm a trans man who understands the female experience. Very well. Yes, men are scary, and I've bonked dudes on the head for feeding into the 'not all men' nonsense.
But I've run across very rude & obnoxious women who seem to hate men, are being passive/micro-aggressive, say all kinds of nasty things, and frustrate me to no end. I know the difference, but they assume I don't. I lived that experience for 58 years and this one for 10 years. It's not cut & dry where a woman is coming from, but just as I can tell when someone is racist ... without them using racial slurs ... I can tell when a woman is being that way, too.
By the same token, it's definitely not cut & dry where a man is coming from, either. I've seen that fury up close and personal, and I feared for the women in their lives. Even after saying something to the guy(s) about their temper or rage. Worse with white guys than Black ones, but it's still very much there.
But, Dr. Patton is right. It's going to turn this country upside-down if we don't get some kind of handle on all this. It will become a population concern and probably already is. Same thing is happening in Japan, which I found interesting. I doubt men will turn this country over to women like many say they will. We can't even elect a female President. SMFH 🙄
I would (as another trans person) argue that misandry is something of a by-product of misogyny, mostly bc misogyny is so inescapable, that it twists the aforementioned rational pattern-recognition and risk-awareness into "there's no hope for any man to ever be anything good ever." (Which is not a defense of that, btw, that's an awful, binary, hopeless way of thinking.)
Now, looking at a more....niche experience, I suppose it could be called, hatred of trans men/mascs in particular is a similar but different phenomenon (which you're probably aware of, it sucks so much).
I think. Societal power plays into this a lot. Which makes everything messier, bc it's not a cut-and-dried equation, y'know? Does a trans man have societal power over a cis woman? Probably not, but that doesn't factor in any other power dynamics than those two.
All told, I think, *in general* the term and phenomenon "misandry" isn't able to be properly addressed until we address the root of it, which is: fear and anger about the structures built up over however long that prioritize men's feelings over women's lives.
And like, I know there's a lot of nuance not being addressed, but this already feels lecture-y, which is not my intention, so I'll cut myself off here.
I don't know. I'm not interested in power OVER women, even though I'm a powerful person. I also don't like to argue; I debate. Men need to learn how to finesse, not demand. I don't think it's a by-product at all and that word probably existed before this century. It has gotten ridiculous these days, and what I say, I say from experience of being both genders. My wisdom stems from both sides of the track.
I'm very observant, accurate, and I trust my instincts. I can read people like you wouldn't believe. I've been all over the internet since it began, because that was my career field, too. I've seen it all. Well, perhaps not all, but most.
I'm not your typical trans man anyway. I immersed myself fully in the male experience. The only difference are my man-parts. I can barely identify with most transmales and take issue with our community. Especially since there's too much racism mixed in as well. Nobody's manning THAT ship. I am a traditional Boomer man, but not trying to open up that can of worms.
I see the fights going on right now, and trust me, there are misandrists running all over the place, including trans women. Especially them. Nobody would even suspect. 😆
Women seem to be the ones interested in power over men now, because they're traumatized and pissed. This world is broken, where humans are concerned. Men do need to wake up and stop trying to distance themselves from what lots of women are complaining about these days. Easy for me to do until they become hateful and think I'm a punching bag for that shit. I am not. I dealt with my trauma ... in therapy long ago and other things I've done since. 😉
No argument on the racism in the dominant transmasc community, unfortunately being oppressed on one axis doesn't mean you're gonna be a saint to people on other axes that you don't have experience with (and this absolutely includes the transwomen you've mentioned. The level of...honestly, redressed misogyny spread around about transmascs coming from far too many transwomen is infuriating).
Continuing on not arguing, because I appreciate your stance on debating, not arguing and would potentially like to continue this respectfully, I would point out that just because a word may exist, that doesn't mean it's accurate or based in fact. Which is not to say there aren't women who hate men/masc people! I think the sticking point about misandry, with me, is that it -- on a general, global scale -- doesn't have the same societal power. Of course there are individual women who have power over individual men, but it doesn't have the same level of permeation, you know?
There was a news story I read -- perhaps shared and commented on by Dr. Patton here, but I'm not sure about that -- about the enormous backlog of untested rape kits from Chicago. Because of the immense effort of one woman, all of them have been processed, but a lot of them were old. 5+ years, at a conservative attempt at recollection on my part. And the level of casual disregard for the people who had these kits done -- mostly women -- is structural.
So, in my own experience, the pushback against "misandry" as a term is less about trying to say that "oh, women never hate men" and more "bringing that word to conversations on misogyny is trying to place them at the same level of effect, and that's not accurate."
There are people who want to flip the system -- women on top, men on bottom -- and isn't that just the story of basically everything. We're not gonna move forward as a society unless we dismantle the systems that are keeping people down. All of them. And it's gonna be a hell of a fight to get too many -- but hopefully not as many as the internet would make seem -- people to understand this. Fear is powerful, but it's fragile, and I truly, truly believe that we can shatter it and build something kinder. I just hope I (in all my Gen Z-ness) get to see it.
Oh, I didn't say in the transmasc community. It's the entire trans community, including transfem community, nb's, gnc's. Racism is racism and has no community or party.
There is no word for that within the NB or GNC community, since they're not gendered. No, misandry doesn't hold the same weight by a long shot, but it's still mixed in with femininity, feminists, misandrists, etc.
And listen. I've been raped, too. I just don't deal with stuff like that in a public sphere. I got over it and moved far beyond it. If I hate men because of it, I would be hating myself. That's a slant most trans people don't think about, but men who are sexually abused & raped don't end up hating/fearing men.
Transwomen are on a whole other level with regards to this. Many act like they hate men, because they transitioned away from the man in them. Like they forgot what it was to be a man, or hated it. Pissed off that they lost male privilege transitioning to women/females. That's just some, not all. I never mean ALL when I say things. But those people are some of the loudest in our community and obnoxious AF.
The transmale world is highly fucked up with this regard. Many of them have been abused before they transitioned and perhaps afterwards. Many of them hate men and then are afraid to transition out of being females socially. It's really straaaaaaange. I'm just not one who does things half-assed. I'm not one of the blind leading the blind. No wonder they harp on this being a spectrum and complicating the fuck out of being trans. I kid you not; it gets on my nerves. 😂😂 Transition mixed in with trauma = ???? (or one fucked-up human being ... LOL).
I think transitioning would be much easier if not for the trauma aspect on all sides of the tracks. I refused to deal with it for 4 years because of trauma-stuff and coming out in the LGBT world in the 70's. I was horrified at the prospect of going through any of that again. I researched until I was tired of fighting who I knew myself to be. 😁
You know we're educating folks in this thread, and for that reason, thanks for the talk.
Ah, I misunderstood the level of specificity you meant, my bad.
And oh, definitely men are raped/sexually abused, I wasn't trying to say they're not. Apologies if it came off that way. What I was intending to say was more like "because it is perceived as such a 'female' issue (even when it happens to men), the way society is structured (with most cops being cis men) it's almost encouraged to ignore it." And the way male rape victims are treated is rooted in misogyny -- look at the comment sections of articles about male students sexually abused by female teachers.
It's really recursive and it feeds itself, 'round and 'round. And the way "male" and "female" are thought of as so distinct is, I mean, part of the problem. The fact that HRT can relatively easily change typical markers of sexes (facial hair, breasts, even non/pre-op trans men getting bottom growth) points to "we're human first, and while our differences aren't unimportant, they're also not as dividing as we make them seem."
I do think there are a few things brought up that we won't see perfectly eye-to-eye on, but it's been good to hear things from a different perspective. It helps me test my own views and see if they need strengthening or need to be scrapped altogether.
214 Black women and girls have been killed by gun violence alone since January 1. I keep the numbers because I've been attempting to bring awareness to this issue as an independent Black femicide researcher. Sadly, because the latest victims looked a certain way and were "perfect" Black victims, that's the reason traction is happening. As a mental health nurse, I see it from a professional viewpoint and as a Black woman, from a personal perspective.
Thanks but I'm fully aware of the metrics. Two full years before the FBI stated in 2020 that a Black woman was being killed 4 times a day, I was already saying it and using the the hashtag #every6hours because my independent research showed the reality the community and government refused to. I don't have a team and work alone, I don't have federal funding but what I do have is a great concern and give a damn about my Black sisters. I have spoken at UN-sponsored events addressing Black femicide in America. I work with global femicide researchers and I do the work. This is a crisis in the Black community and I refuse for anyone to try to put this issue "in perspective". If this were happening to Black men, we already know swift action would be taken. Per capita, the numbers are abominable.
Thank you, Greg, for immediately and perfectly proving Dr. Patton's point. Your refusal to listen and take the problem seriously are a big part of why women are scared.
Are you fucking crazy, man? There has ALWAYS been an epidemic of violence against Black Women from all kinds of men. Where do you live? In a bubble? Since we were dragged over here, Black women have been sexualized, raped, and tortured. You are NOT being honest at all and need to check your fool self.
And we can *really* count on the current FBI in particular to produce accurate numbers when it comes to crime, especially crime against Black women. /s
It's amazing how predictable these responses are. Most women aren't murdered so the murder of women isn't a problem. Ridiculous.
I did some research for a scholarly article I was trying to write, about 30 years ago. I realize the data is old but the FBI concluded, based on victim reports, that black men are far more likely to commit rape than white men and most of their victims are black women since most rape is intra-race. Sorry to rain on your BLM parade. By the way the whole BLM movement was a black men's movement not a black women's movement (and a white liberal college student movement).
Ofc they do, that ain’t surprising to me or nobody, it’s function. But that has nothing to do with the fact of what they was tryna say. We know what an imperfect victim is, by default you’re living that experience rn. I ain’t talking sideways, I’m fixing a gap in communication, there.
Do you understand what the phenomenological concept of a perfect victim is? Let’s not play clueless, here. We all know victims get treated differently based on positionality in hierarchy, how they behave after abuse, and what they look like. Stop that
I have never heard of that before, so, no. Do not wag your fucking finger at me. Just explain what it is. White people talk fucking funny and I've been victim of it. So, YOU STOP! 🙄🙄
That is NOT the point, and you know it. Then YOU talk funny. Point is, I came in here asking an innocent question and you became a disrespectful B about it. That is the point. Are you Nola?
I’ve tried to read every article that women like Dr. Patton have written in light of these horrific crimes. As a man, they have been painful but necessary and important reads that compel me to examine myself and try to the best of my abilities to understand what my sisters are experiencing. I was probably a bit defensive at first, but then I had to be honest and acknowledge that over the course of my life I’ve done or said things that women found off-putting to say the least. So, I think that I need to sit with what is being said here and in other forums, listen with humility do what I can to help break this cycle.
As a Black Man in America it is also extremely important and crucial to reject, object, condemn and push back where appropriate fake news, stereotypes, generalisations, hyped verbiage, outsized context and Bull Shit
That's right. He's the one who doesn't understand anything. Not even what comes out of his twisted brain. SMFH 🙄🙄🙄 He ain't shit. I've run into him before, and now he will get muted or blocked. Ain't nobody got time for his bullshit, least of all me. He's incapable of listening to reason. Trust me.
Yep I am smarter than your dumb ass .. None of my comments get block because as U admitted I am so GD smart… Still waiting on U to post something of value
🤣🤣🤣 bruh... 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 My flabbers are gasted. Please, for the sake of yourself and everyone who runs the risk of losing brain cells when they read your comments, go sit quietly somewhere little buddy.
You're extreme arrogance alone elimantes your ability to join any conversation about this in any meaningful way. Take a look at yourself in the mirror. If what you see is attractive and appealing to you--I rest my case. You're not anywhere near as smart as you think!
Don't be a prick, Greg. Damn, man. You are walking around with a chip on your shoulder the size of the U.S. Amazing you can't see it, which makes you a ... wait for it ... a royal dick!
You ain't checkmating anybody, you stupid fuck. This is the damn internet and you probably can't even play chess. Move along little boy. Everybody in here thinks you're dumb. Can't read a room, either. You're a barrel of laughs ... NOT! SMFH
You call yourself a genius, (like DJT), berate in a very petty manner those people who respond to you and then claim that they don't deserve your attention. LOL! you're so full of shit and totally transparent in your craving for attention. Now go F*ck off back into your mirrored lair!
To Dr. Patton and all others except Greg seeing as how he's willingly flown his red flag yet again in public, I have no problem now being specific. This is actually the man I was talking about in my earlier comment who enacts violence with his words and refuses to believe that patriarchy and entitlement lead directly to the daily dangers of women, especially black women... even as he declares so proudly that Black Lives Matter with every sign off. Apparently he simply cannot restrain himself from being a verbally violent harm to the community attempting to engage in good faith with Dr. Patton's work.
I see he continues to show why posts like this are sadly necessary. Men are scary precisely because the rest of us never know who is going to act like this in the space we occupy offline. We never know when they're going to switch to this behavior if they start out kind. But they may not, which makes trust always a gamble. It makes me wonder if Greg here has a wife or female partner... and if so, does she know the violence he's willing to spew at other women online under a cloak of anonymity? He certainly doesn't seem to care that he's literally proving the point of the article again and again.
I'm going to call this behavior what it is: a testerical mantrum from a man who demands to take up space and be recognized as the world's bestest brain while delivering nothing of redeeming value, intellectual substance, or academic worth. He's likely going to read this and insult me for calling his lousy behavior out, he did last time. This man is a danger, y'all; do not feed this troll.
I reported him directly to her. I've run into that asshole before, too. He's a maniac. Hope he gets some therapy, because he truly needs it. He acts like this all over Substack. What a waste of space. Don't know why I didn't block him before but he is now. Nobody has time for his particular brand of stupidity. UGH!
Hope Dr. Patton bans him from her account. He deserves it. He's a bold-faced liar.
Do spare me your assumptions and rhetoric nothing in my reasoned comments spews violence at women here or anywhere
This poster is clearly fixated on my persona and it is disturbing
This poster lacks the capacity to acknowledge the opinions of others that don’t mirror hers
I have no problem rejecting the tiresome rant about patriarchy and Black Men in America
Facts matter in America as such there is no documented epidemic of violence by Black men against Black women or Black men!!
This is no crisis in Black America with Black Men and Black Women
There are 21 Million Black Women in America, 22% are under 18 years of age
Of course One Black Women murdered is One to many those who continue to push this racist narrative that Black Men are engaged in a killing spree against Black Women are dangerous and deserve to be condemned pushing this racist rhetoric!!!
Crime in America especially homicides are down significantly in America including Black Venues
Something is broken in your logic, Greg. Oh shit. I've seen you before and questioned your slanted opinions. Let me remedy that, because you are hopeless.
No cowards over here. Just someone who knows when his time is being wasted on crackpots like you. You're definitely who Dr. Patton is talking about. Most definitely. Too stupid to know it, too. What a waste of space.
It is why in my mid 70’s I am not in a relationship and have not been for decades,.In those few decades before that I had hundreds of lived experiences.
Between direct physical harm the threat of physical harm , there was the emotional, psychological and spiritual harm.
Both Within and without the family and from strangers. Leaving as a teenager, taking the subway in New York City to school, always needing to stand in the corner between two walls no way to protect oneself, walking up the stairs to get out of the subway, and all the dozens of other things that women do that men don’t have to think of.
President Carter’s TED talk said of the number one issue in the world was the treatment of women and girls.
Sometimes you make mistakes or do stupid things or trust too easily, but I do remember being told you shouldn’t have come here I could kill you easily. We won’t talk about what happened next.
And the men who say not all men how many times have you been in a group of men and heard them talking about women as objects, did you say anything?
I think of the Substack post written by a male hiker who is pointing out to men how to make a single woman, hiking, not feel threatened when you were walking near her on the trail, and how many men attacked him for saying that.
I have often thought of if how a on top of everything else I’ve experienced,if Ito deal with racism on top of it. I seems like that would that would’ve broken me completely.
I saw that post, but didn't see the aftermath of it. So, guys attacked him? That's crazy. The women he did that for appreciated him, and fuck those loser guys for that. They're probably lonely and haven't been laid in years. I had to say it. 😆
Our sistas are some of the strongest women on the planet.
"It normalized a style of engagement where domination, humiliation, and degradation are strategies."
Hell, it made them *virtues*.
I was probably already too old anyway, and damaged goods, but my disabled ass decided soon after my husband's death that I was not interested in dating and I absolutely would not remarry under any circumstances.
As you say, it's not about all men. We just don't know who to trust and to guess wrong means living in hell--best-case scenario--or winding up dead.
When the results of the "man or bear" poll were posted on social media, too many men argued with those results using "not me" and "not all men" tropes instead of asking why the majority of women chose the bear. Men are scary. Hell, they're scary to me and I'm a man. There is so much work to be done and the brunt of it lies with us. Wait. No, not the brunt. All of it. All of the work. Silence is complicity. Inaction is permission.
I often think of this quote by Muhammad Ali. "if 10,000 snakes were coming down that aisle now, and I had a door that I could shut, and in that 10,000, 1,000 meant right, 1,000 rattlesnakes didn't wanna bite me... Should I let all those rattlesnakes come down... Or should I just close the door and stay safe?"
What you say, Dr. Patton is truth; And it makes looking at the photo that goes with your essay even harder, because it is visibly clear that those 8 little lives were not comfortable, nor happy, to be in that Man’s proximity. . . (jmho)
Thank you, Dr. Patton. The way I view men has changed tremendously over the last few months. I simply don’t believe that men outside of my circle aren’t harmful. I’m also looking sideways at those inside my circle. The threat is felt in the every fiber of my body & soul. I know it’s not all men, but it’s feels like it’s way too many to discount that it’s not all men.
Great piece, Stacey! And this is a BAR, cause it's very true!
"Because when fear becomes a more reliable companion than intimacy, that is not just a dating problem. It is a serious public health issue and a social crisis." Sheeesh.
Women do not hate men. Women love men. But women do have to protect themselves from men. No woman, especially black women is saying that there aren’t harmful women, we know of harmful women, specifically some white women, but we know the power men have and the cruelty of men. I, too, am not an all men person, and I do hate the stereotypes of black men, I am sensitive to that. But, that doesn’t mean I’m going to be alone with any random man of any color if I can help it.
I used to think finding a good man was scary. Dating with it's risks. Now with more revelations about men drugging their wives and raping them, on top of men hitting, injuring, and killing their wives and girlfriends (I refuse to use the milk toast words domestic abuse) the whole heterosexual project is not a good risk calculation.
They always say “not all men,” and that’s what makes the whole fear more valid. If it were every single man, women would have it easy. You would know that you’re
walking into danger. But the fact that you have no idea which one it is makes it terrifying
I keep telling certain men that this feeling women have is not misandry. Not bigotry. It is a lived experience, over and over. It’s intelligent not to continue to place a hand on a hot iron. Touch it twice and then you know to stay the hell away from a hot iron. The conclusion that men are scary is a completely intelligent conclusion to come to.
Thank you for explaining this in a way I will send to just about every dude I know.
Hey, listen. It's all mixed together, though. I keep running across misandrist women around here, without this particular topic, and I'm a trans man who understands the female experience. Very well. Yes, men are scary, and I've bonked dudes on the head for feeding into the 'not all men' nonsense.
But I've run across very rude & obnoxious women who seem to hate men, are being passive/micro-aggressive, say all kinds of nasty things, and frustrate me to no end. I know the difference, but they assume I don't. I lived that experience for 58 years and this one for 10 years. It's not cut & dry where a woman is coming from, but just as I can tell when someone is racist ... without them using racial slurs ... I can tell when a woman is being that way, too.
By the same token, it's definitely not cut & dry where a man is coming from, either. I've seen that fury up close and personal, and I feared for the women in their lives. Even after saying something to the guy(s) about their temper or rage. Worse with white guys than Black ones, but it's still very much there.
But, Dr. Patton is right. It's going to turn this country upside-down if we don't get some kind of handle on all this. It will become a population concern and probably already is. Same thing is happening in Japan, which I found interesting. I doubt men will turn this country over to women like many say they will. We can't even elect a female President. SMFH 🙄
I would (as another trans person) argue that misandry is something of a by-product of misogyny, mostly bc misogyny is so inescapable, that it twists the aforementioned rational pattern-recognition and risk-awareness into "there's no hope for any man to ever be anything good ever." (Which is not a defense of that, btw, that's an awful, binary, hopeless way of thinking.)
Now, looking at a more....niche experience, I suppose it could be called, hatred of trans men/mascs in particular is a similar but different phenomenon (which you're probably aware of, it sucks so much).
I think. Societal power plays into this a lot. Which makes everything messier, bc it's not a cut-and-dried equation, y'know? Does a trans man have societal power over a cis woman? Probably not, but that doesn't factor in any other power dynamics than those two.
All told, I think, *in general* the term and phenomenon "misandry" isn't able to be properly addressed until we address the root of it, which is: fear and anger about the structures built up over however long that prioritize men's feelings over women's lives.
And like, I know there's a lot of nuance not being addressed, but this already feels lecture-y, which is not my intention, so I'll cut myself off here.
I don't know. I'm not interested in power OVER women, even though I'm a powerful person. I also don't like to argue; I debate. Men need to learn how to finesse, not demand. I don't think it's a by-product at all and that word probably existed before this century. It has gotten ridiculous these days, and what I say, I say from experience of being both genders. My wisdom stems from both sides of the track.
I'm very observant, accurate, and I trust my instincts. I can read people like you wouldn't believe. I've been all over the internet since it began, because that was my career field, too. I've seen it all. Well, perhaps not all, but most.
I'm not your typical trans man anyway. I immersed myself fully in the male experience. The only difference are my man-parts. I can barely identify with most transmales and take issue with our community. Especially since there's too much racism mixed in as well. Nobody's manning THAT ship. I am a traditional Boomer man, but not trying to open up that can of worms.
I see the fights going on right now, and trust me, there are misandrists running all over the place, including trans women. Especially them. Nobody would even suspect. 😆
Women seem to be the ones interested in power over men now, because they're traumatized and pissed. This world is broken, where humans are concerned. Men do need to wake up and stop trying to distance themselves from what lots of women are complaining about these days. Easy for me to do until they become hateful and think I'm a punching bag for that shit. I am not. I dealt with my trauma ... in therapy long ago and other things I've done since. 😉
No argument on the racism in the dominant transmasc community, unfortunately being oppressed on one axis doesn't mean you're gonna be a saint to people on other axes that you don't have experience with (and this absolutely includes the transwomen you've mentioned. The level of...honestly, redressed misogyny spread around about transmascs coming from far too many transwomen is infuriating).
Continuing on not arguing, because I appreciate your stance on debating, not arguing and would potentially like to continue this respectfully, I would point out that just because a word may exist, that doesn't mean it's accurate or based in fact. Which is not to say there aren't women who hate men/masc people! I think the sticking point about misandry, with me, is that it -- on a general, global scale -- doesn't have the same societal power. Of course there are individual women who have power over individual men, but it doesn't have the same level of permeation, you know?
There was a news story I read -- perhaps shared and commented on by Dr. Patton here, but I'm not sure about that -- about the enormous backlog of untested rape kits from Chicago. Because of the immense effort of one woman, all of them have been processed, but a lot of them were old. 5+ years, at a conservative attempt at recollection on my part. And the level of casual disregard for the people who had these kits done -- mostly women -- is structural.
So, in my own experience, the pushback against "misandry" as a term is less about trying to say that "oh, women never hate men" and more "bringing that word to conversations on misogyny is trying to place them at the same level of effect, and that's not accurate."
There are people who want to flip the system -- women on top, men on bottom -- and isn't that just the story of basically everything. We're not gonna move forward as a society unless we dismantle the systems that are keeping people down. All of them. And it's gonna be a hell of a fight to get too many -- but hopefully not as many as the internet would make seem -- people to understand this. Fear is powerful, but it's fragile, and I truly, truly believe that we can shatter it and build something kinder. I just hope I (in all my Gen Z-ness) get to see it.
Oh, I didn't say in the transmasc community. It's the entire trans community, including transfem community, nb's, gnc's. Racism is racism and has no community or party.
There is no word for that within the NB or GNC community, since they're not gendered. No, misandry doesn't hold the same weight by a long shot, but it's still mixed in with femininity, feminists, misandrists, etc.
And listen. I've been raped, too. I just don't deal with stuff like that in a public sphere. I got over it and moved far beyond it. If I hate men because of it, I would be hating myself. That's a slant most trans people don't think about, but men who are sexually abused & raped don't end up hating/fearing men.
Transwomen are on a whole other level with regards to this. Many act like they hate men, because they transitioned away from the man in them. Like they forgot what it was to be a man, or hated it. Pissed off that they lost male privilege transitioning to women/females. That's just some, not all. I never mean ALL when I say things. But those people are some of the loudest in our community and obnoxious AF.
The transmale world is highly fucked up with this regard. Many of them have been abused before they transitioned and perhaps afterwards. Many of them hate men and then are afraid to transition out of being females socially. It's really straaaaaaange. I'm just not one who does things half-assed. I'm not one of the blind leading the blind. No wonder they harp on this being a spectrum and complicating the fuck out of being trans. I kid you not; it gets on my nerves. 😂😂 Transition mixed in with trauma = ???? (or one fucked-up human being ... LOL).
I think transitioning would be much easier if not for the trauma aspect on all sides of the tracks. I refused to deal with it for 4 years because of trauma-stuff and coming out in the LGBT world in the 70's. I was horrified at the prospect of going through any of that again. I researched until I was tired of fighting who I knew myself to be. 😁
You know we're educating folks in this thread, and for that reason, thanks for the talk.
Ah, I misunderstood the level of specificity you meant, my bad.
And oh, definitely men are raped/sexually abused, I wasn't trying to say they're not. Apologies if it came off that way. What I was intending to say was more like "because it is perceived as such a 'female' issue (even when it happens to men), the way society is structured (with most cops being cis men) it's almost encouraged to ignore it." And the way male rape victims are treated is rooted in misogyny -- look at the comment sections of articles about male students sexually abused by female teachers.
It's really recursive and it feeds itself, 'round and 'round. And the way "male" and "female" are thought of as so distinct is, I mean, part of the problem. The fact that HRT can relatively easily change typical markers of sexes (facial hair, breasts, even non/pre-op trans men getting bottom growth) points to "we're human first, and while our differences aren't unimportant, they're also not as dividing as we make them seem."
I do think there are a few things brought up that we won't see perfectly eye-to-eye on, but it's been good to hear things from a different perspective. It helps me test my own views and see if they need strengthening or need to be scrapped altogether.
214 Black women and girls have been killed by gun violence alone since January 1. I keep the numbers because I've been attempting to bring awareness to this issue as an independent Black femicide researcher. Sadly, because the latest victims looked a certain way and were "perfect" Black victims, that's the reason traction is happening. As a mental health nurse, I see it from a professional viewpoint and as a Black woman, from a personal perspective.
Of course 214 Black Woman killed by gun violence is unacceptable and tragic for their families
For context In America there are 21 million Black Women approx 22% under 18 years of age
Unfortunately I don’t know the metrics on those living in fear or at risk
I will try to get some inform data /stats
Greg/BLM
Thanks but I'm fully aware of the metrics. Two full years before the FBI stated in 2020 that a Black woman was being killed 4 times a day, I was already saying it and using the the hashtag #every6hours because my independent research showed the reality the community and government refused to. I don't have a team and work alone, I don't have federal funding but what I do have is a great concern and give a damn about my Black sisters. I have spoken at UN-sponsored events addressing Black femicide in America. I work with global femicide researchers and I do the work. This is a crisis in the Black community and I refuse for anyone to try to put this issue "in perspective". If this were happening to Black men, we already know swift action would be taken. Per capita, the numbers are abominable.
And yet he continues to mansplain....
No, we're shutting that shit down ... NOW!
There is no epidemic of violence against Black Women anywhere in Black America
I am also aware of the FBI Uniform Crime Data in fact crime across America is down significantly and historically including Black American venues
Per Capita is not an accurate metric of real time but a data equation
Whether something is a ‘crisis ‘ requires more than an opinion
Of course and without question One murdered Black Woman is one too many …
Greg/BLM
Thank you, Greg, for immediately and perfectly proving Dr. Patton's point. Your refusal to listen and take the problem seriously are a big part of why women are scared.
My research and numbers are not an opinion. As always, the issues of Black women are downplayed.
Are you fucking crazy, man? There has ALWAYS been an epidemic of violence against Black Women from all kinds of men. Where do you live? In a bubble? Since we were dragged over here, Black women have been sexualized, raped, and tortured. You are NOT being honest at all and need to check your fool self.
And we can *really* count on the current FBI in particular to produce accurate numbers when it comes to crime, especially crime against Black women. /s
Right. The FBI has been problematic for a very long time AND racist. Greg is foolish and dumb for even letting that come out of his fucking mouth.
It's amazing how predictable these responses are. Most women aren't murdered so the murder of women isn't a problem. Ridiculous.
I did some research for a scholarly article I was trying to write, about 30 years ago. I realize the data is old but the FBI concluded, based on victim reports, that black men are far more likely to commit rape than white men and most of their victims are black women since most rape is intra-race. Sorry to rain on your BLM parade. By the way the whole BLM movement was a black men's movement not a black women's movement (and a white liberal college student movement).
Thank you for the work you do. ❤️
Ofc they do, that ain’t surprising to me or nobody, it’s function. But that has nothing to do with the fact of what they was tryna say. We know what an imperfect victim is, by default you’re living that experience rn. I ain’t talking sideways, I’m fixing a gap in communication, there.
😔😭
Looked a certain way and were "perfect" Black victims? What does that mean, Ms?
Do you understand what the phenomenological concept of a perfect victim is? Let’s not play clueless, here. We all know victims get treated differently based on positionality in hierarchy, how they behave after abuse, and what they look like. Stop that
I have never heard of that before, so, no. Do not wag your fucking finger at me. Just explain what it is. White people talk fucking funny and I've been victim of it. So, YOU STOP! 🙄🙄
Not sure what you mean by, "White people talk fucking funny" because I'm Black!
That is NOT the point, and you know it. Then YOU talk funny. Point is, I came in here asking an innocent question and you became a disrespectful B about it. That is the point. Are you Nola?
I’ve tried to read every article that women like Dr. Patton have written in light of these horrific crimes. As a man, they have been painful but necessary and important reads that compel me to examine myself and try to the best of my abilities to understand what my sisters are experiencing. I was probably a bit defensive at first, but then I had to be honest and acknowledge that over the course of my life I’ve done or said things that women found off-putting to say the least. So, I think that I need to sit with what is being said here and in other forums, listen with humility do what I can to help break this cycle.
As a Black Man in America it is also extremely important and crucial to reject, object, condemn and push back where appropriate fake news, stereotypes, generalisations, hyped verbiage, outsized context and Bull Shit
Greg/BLM
What a strange response. You know it's very easy not to hit send, right?
My comment was in reply to a comment which has now disappeared
U do understand how comments and replies work… Right??
Greg/BLM
No, you're just so much smarter than me, or anyone else in the world. Teach me how your stupid comments work.
The comment didn't disappear. You were blocked because you say stupid shyt. Again, you know it's very easy not to hit send, right?
That's right. He's the one who doesn't understand anything. Not even what comes out of his twisted brain. SMFH 🙄🙄🙄 He ain't shit. I've run into him before, and now he will get muted or blocked. Ain't nobody got time for his bullshit, least of all me. He's incapable of listening to reason. Trust me.
Thrasher,fitting name.
Yep … Bystanders like U love it apparently
lol lol lol
Greg/BLM
Yep I am smarter than your dumb ass .. None of my comments get block because as U admitted I am so GD smart… Still waiting on U to post something of value
Checkmate :-)
Greg/BLM
🤣🤣🤣 bruh... 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 My flabbers are gasted. Please, for the sake of yourself and everyone who runs the risk of losing brain cells when they read your comments, go sit quietly somewhere little buddy.
You're extreme arrogance alone elimantes your ability to join any conversation about this in any meaningful way. Take a look at yourself in the mirror. If what you see is attractive and appealing to you--I rest my case. You're not anywhere near as smart as you think!
Don't be a prick, Greg. Damn, man. You are walking around with a chip on your shoulder the size of the U.S. Amazing you can't see it, which makes you a ... wait for it ... a royal dick!
Little pricks like U that are fixated on my persona and
genius are boring MOFO
Stop hiding behind a mask and MAN UP
Cowardly posters like U don’t deserve my respect or attention
Now Fuck Off
Checkmate
Greg/BLM
You ain't checkmating anybody, you stupid fuck. This is the damn internet and you probably can't even play chess. Move along little boy. Everybody in here thinks you're dumb. Can't read a room, either. You're a barrel of laughs ... NOT! SMFH
You call yourself a genius, (like DJT), berate in a very petty manner those people who respond to you and then claim that they don't deserve your attention. LOL! you're so full of shit and totally transparent in your craving for attention. Now go F*ck off back into your mirrored lair!
To Dr. Patton and all others except Greg seeing as how he's willingly flown his red flag yet again in public, I have no problem now being specific. This is actually the man I was talking about in my earlier comment who enacts violence with his words and refuses to believe that patriarchy and entitlement lead directly to the daily dangers of women, especially black women... even as he declares so proudly that Black Lives Matter with every sign off. Apparently he simply cannot restrain himself from being a verbally violent harm to the community attempting to engage in good faith with Dr. Patton's work.
I see he continues to show why posts like this are sadly necessary. Men are scary precisely because the rest of us never know who is going to act like this in the space we occupy offline. We never know when they're going to switch to this behavior if they start out kind. But they may not, which makes trust always a gamble. It makes me wonder if Greg here has a wife or female partner... and if so, does she know the violence he's willing to spew at other women online under a cloak of anonymity? He certainly doesn't seem to care that he's literally proving the point of the article again and again.
I'm going to call this behavior what it is: a testerical mantrum from a man who demands to take up space and be recognized as the world's bestest brain while delivering nothing of redeeming value, intellectual substance, or academic worth. He's likely going to read this and insult me for calling his lousy behavior out, he did last time. This man is a danger, y'all; do not feed this troll.
I reported him directly to her. I've run into that asshole before, too. He's a maniac. Hope he gets some therapy, because he truly needs it. He acts like this all over Substack. What a waste of space. Don't know why I didn't block him before but he is now. Nobody has time for his particular brand of stupidity. UGH!
Hope Dr. Patton bans him from her account. He deserves it. He's a bold-faced liar.
U doth protest to much
Do spare me your assumptions and rhetoric nothing in my reasoned comments spews violence at women here or anywhere
This poster is clearly fixated on my persona and it is disturbing
This poster lacks the capacity to acknowledge the opinions of others that don’t mirror hers
I have no problem rejecting the tiresome rant about patriarchy and Black Men in America
Facts matter in America as such there is no documented epidemic of violence by Black men against Black women or Black men!!
This is no crisis in Black America with Black Men and Black Women
There are 21 Million Black Women in America, 22% are under 18 years of age
Of course One Black Women murdered is One to many those who continue to push this racist narrative that Black Men are engaged in a killing spree against Black Women are dangerous and deserve to be condemned pushing this racist rhetoric!!!
Crime in America especially homicides are down significantly in America including Black Venues
B Better
Greg/BLM
"Facts matter guys, so here are a bunch of my opinions!" - Greg Thrasher
This poster is stalking me … He finds me irresistible and he is fixated on my persona and genius
I often have that impact on envious nobodies like this poster:-)
lol lol
Greg/BLM
"I don't know how comment threads work, but the imaginary friends told me that I'm super cool." - Greg Thrasher
Something is broken in your logic, Greg. Oh shit. I've seen you before and questioned your slanted opinions. Let me remedy that, because you are hopeless.
U R an idiot and a coward that hides behind a silly ass name to rant BS and Babble
Stay in your lane MOFO
Checkmate
Greg/BLM
No cowards over here. Just someone who knows when his time is being wasted on crackpots like you. You're definitely who Dr. Patton is talking about. Most definitely. Too stupid to know it, too. What a waste of space.
U R a POS Coward that hides behind your Daddy
Fuck Off MOFO!
Checkmate
Greg/BLM
Just can't help yourself Greg, can you? Grow up and cultivate a little humility and reason. You REALLY ARE NOT AS SMART AS YOU THINK YOU ARE!
It is why in my mid 70’s I am not in a relationship and have not been for decades,.In those few decades before that I had hundreds of lived experiences.
Between direct physical harm the threat of physical harm , there was the emotional, psychological and spiritual harm.
Both Within and without the family and from strangers. Leaving as a teenager, taking the subway in New York City to school, always needing to stand in the corner between two walls no way to protect oneself, walking up the stairs to get out of the subway, and all the dozens of other things that women do that men don’t have to think of.
President Carter’s TED talk said of the number one issue in the world was the treatment of women and girls.
Sometimes you make mistakes or do stupid things or trust too easily, but I do remember being told you shouldn’t have come here I could kill you easily. We won’t talk about what happened next.
And the men who say not all men how many times have you been in a group of men and heard them talking about women as objects, did you say anything?
I think of the Substack post written by a male hiker who is pointing out to men how to make a single woman, hiking, not feel threatened when you were walking near her on the trail, and how many men attacked him for saying that.
I have often thought of if how a on top of everything else I’ve experienced,if Ito deal with racism on top of it. I seems like that would that would’ve broken me completely.
I saw that post, but didn't see the aftermath of it. So, guys attacked him? That's crazy. The women he did that for appreciated him, and fuck those loser guys for that. They're probably lonely and haven't been laid in years. I had to say it. 😆
Our sistas are some of the strongest women on the planet.
"It normalized a style of engagement where domination, humiliation, and degradation are strategies."
Hell, it made them *virtues*.
I was probably already too old anyway, and damaged goods, but my disabled ass decided soon after my husband's death that I was not interested in dating and I absolutely would not remarry under any circumstances.
As you say, it's not about all men. We just don't know who to trust and to guess wrong means living in hell--best-case scenario--or winding up dead.
I got lucky the first time. Wasn't gonna push it.
I too am a widow.
Not planning to ever date again, much less marry.
It’s not worth the risk.
When the results of the "man or bear" poll were posted on social media, too many men argued with those results using "not me" and "not all men" tropes instead of asking why the majority of women chose the bear. Men are scary. Hell, they're scary to me and I'm a man. There is so much work to be done and the brunt of it lies with us. Wait. No, not the brunt. All of it. All of the work. Silence is complicity. Inaction is permission.
I often think of this quote by Muhammad Ali. "if 10,000 snakes were coming down that aisle now, and I had a door that I could shut, and in that 10,000, 1,000 meant right, 1,000 rattlesnakes didn't wanna bite me... Should I let all those rattlesnakes come down... Or should I just close the door and stay safe?"
One of my faves!!
No, women are not wrong for making those calculations. I have daughters making those calculations. Can’t say I blame them.
What you say, Dr. Patton is truth; And it makes looking at the photo that goes with your essay even harder, because it is visibly clear that those 8 little lives were not comfortable, nor happy, to be in that Man’s proximity. . . (jmho)
Thank you, Dr. Patton. The way I view men has changed tremendously over the last few months. I simply don’t believe that men outside of my circle aren’t harmful. I’m also looking sideways at those inside my circle. The threat is felt in the every fiber of my body & soul. I know it’s not all men, but it’s feels like it’s way too many to discount that it’s not all men.
Great piece, Stacey! And this is a BAR, cause it's very true!
"Because when fear becomes a more reliable companion than intimacy, that is not just a dating problem. It is a serious public health issue and a social crisis." Sheeesh.
Women do not hate men. Women love men. But women do have to protect themselves from men. No woman, especially black women is saying that there aren’t harmful women, we know of harmful women, specifically some white women, but we know the power men have and the cruelty of men. I, too, am not an all men person, and I do hate the stereotypes of black men, I am sensitive to that. But, that doesn’t mean I’m going to be alone with any random man of any color if I can help it.
I used to think finding a good man was scary. Dating with it's risks. Now with more revelations about men drugging their wives and raping them, on top of men hitting, injuring, and killing their wives and girlfriends (I refuse to use the milk toast words domestic abuse) the whole heterosexual project is not a good risk calculation.
Wow. Powerful and brilliant take. Thank you for this.
They always say “not all men,” and that’s what makes the whole fear more valid. If it were every single man, women would have it easy. You would know that you’re
walking into danger. But the fact that you have no idea which one it is makes it terrifying
No one with any knowledge of history can deny that men are scary. I'm a man and I find my fellows frightening. Why are we at war with Iran again?
Nobody knows, least of all those who are supposed to be in charge of the clusterfuck.